Anti Gay Marriage Video

This video is not a GBC production, but I expect that many GBC members would endorse it! 

This campaign has achieved notoriety for its ludicrous format and content.

A very interesting article was written about it in the New York Times – click here to read it.

This shows that the current stand of the GBC on the gay issue is on the furthest fringe of the right. ISKCON is aligning itself with groups that are subject to ridicule and farce. Not a great way to spread our message. It’s especially worrisome because other vaishnava groups, such as Tripurari Swami’s group, are firmly mainstream on this issue and accepting of gay couples. Even Srila Hridayananda Maharaja has “moderated” his opinion that we should “recognize and encourage” gay monogamy, and included in his discourse that gays are, in a sense, “abnormal” and not worthy of the same rights, namely marriage and equal social acceptance of their relationships,  as “normal” heterosexual couples.

For a hilarious response to the above NOM video, click here.

73 Comments

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73 responses to “Anti Gay Marriage Video

  1. If we want to represent a bona fide Vaisnava sampradaya, we cannot endorse sin. Beyond that, homosexuality is extremely filthy-gross even to hear about. Srila Prabhupada called it “demoniac.”

  2. Artist

    Pandu das, I’m not sure what “demoniac” is (other than a band from New Zealand) but I’m sure that Srila P. was much more compassionate during his life than what you think.
    Here – an exerpt from Sanga archives from one of Srila P.s disciples, Tripurari Swami: “Although my Guru Maharaja [Srila Prabhupada] frowned on homosexuality in general, he was also very practical, flexible, and compassionate. One of his earliest disciples was a gay man who once related how he had ultimately discussed his sexual orientation with Srila Prabhupada. He said that at that point Srila Prabhupada said, ‘Then just find a nice boy, stay with him and practice Krsna consciousness.’ I also had the experience of meeting a transsexual who explained her sexual orientation and confusion to Srila Prabhupada before committing to an operation. She told me that Prabhupada told her, ‘Just pick one or the other [sex] and stick with it.’ Those who knew him well would have expected him to say something like this in both of these incidences. Again, he was very flexible and compassionate.”
    (Sanga: Vol. V, no. 13)

    Open your eyes, Pandu das, and learn to just love people and accept them. Let us not judge.

    • Jivananda dasa Vanacari

      My dear “Artist”

      If you had spent much time actually reading Srila Prabhupada’s books you would have a very accurate idea of the meaning of “demoniac”. Yes, Srila Prabhupada is very compassionate. He is also very clear on his view of homosexuality. VERY CLEAR, make no mistake.

      People like you like to portray a sort of concocted Srila Prabhupada, a Santa Claus like figure if you will. Not true. He was very strict and stuck to his principles. He was a general who drove an army of devotees bent on saving the fallen, conditioned souls in this material world (including homosexuals). Saving them, not making them feel good about their sexlives.

      Once again I say read his books. If you were to do so you would understand how he felt about the subject of homosex. If you have access to a computer loaded with the VedaBase you can search out what he said and when and to whom about this subject instead of simply speculating what your fictitious Srila Prabhupada character said. What do you know of Srila Prabhupada? Were you there? If so, in what capacity?

      Becoming a devotee of Krishna means first to realize that we were born in the darkness of ignorance. That means that everything we believed and thought we understood before coming in contact with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings was simply ignorance and rubbish and nothing more. At that point we let go of what we thought we knew and all of our ignorant beliefs we had before our eyes were opened by the torchlight of real knowledge.

      I am not the slightest bit concerned with what my Godbrother Tripurary Swami said that Srila Prabhupada supposedly said. He left ISKCON 25 years ago. Can you find anything like these false quotes in the VedaBase? In order to become a disciple of Srila Prabhupada no one could just “find a nice boy, stay with him practice Krishna Consciousness”. Being driven by your genitals has always been something one had to abandon in order to accept initiation. Any fool that knows anything about ISKCON should know that.

      Considering ones self to be homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual or anything pertaining to sexual preference is bodily consciousness not Krishna consciousness. Even young gurukula children know that.

      Srila Prabhupada is very strict. He is tolerant but he tolerates no nonsense. You say “learn to love”. We can love the homosexual without condoning his bodily nonsense. If we truly love the homosexual then we should try our best to give them the truth regarding their bodily consciousness. It would be less than loving to say “oh that’s alright, continue with this nonsense and just find a nice boy to stay with”. Get your mind out of your crotch and the genitalia of others and try to focus on something spiritual. Find a bona fide spiritual master not a loosey-goosey one that will tell you it’s OK to develop genitalia consciousness.

      Why come to ISKCON and whine for us to bend the rules and regulations? Why not find a movement that better suits your desires for sharing your genitalia with someone else’s? Perhaps ISCCON (the International Society for Crotch Consciousness).

      I truly wish you and other homosexuals well. READ THE BOOKS and accept the torchlight of knowledge. We are here to help you experience a higher taste. We do love you.

      Your servant,
      Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

    • wakeup

      This isnt about compassion. Its about principles. Srila Prabhupada DID NOT ALLOW IT. PERIOD. CELIBATE ONLY.NO ASRAMA FOR HOMOSEXUALS. END OF STORY. SAME AS NO MEAT. NEXT YOU LL BE EATING BIG MACS WHILE YOU CHANT JAPA. OHHHH HELL NO!!!!!!!!

  3. hopefuldevotee

    Your attitude, Pandu das, is exactly the reason I am giving up on ISKCON. I just can’t deal with all the hate. Very ironic that KC is supposed to be all about love and you post something so hateful, calling the lifestyles of many good devotees “filthy-gross.” Do you think saying that kind of thing will actually bring people to Krishna?

    • Giridhari Das

      No need to leave ISKCON on account of Pandu Das. He’s not even in ISKCON. He follows the philosophy of another group!

      There are many, many (I’d say by far the majority) of devotees in ISKCON who are fully supportive of equal opportunity and mercy and kind treatment for all humans, independent of their sexual orientation.

      Your servant,
      Giridhari Das

  4. What do you mean “the current stand of the GBC on the gay issue”?

    What is “the gay issue”?

    What is the current stand of the GBC on that? <– Citation needed.

    • Giridhari Das

      Responding to Sita Pati Prabhu:

      I’m taking my clues from the repression of Srila Hridayananda Das Goswami’s “gay blessing” and his earlier paper, “Vaishnava Moral Theology and Homosexuality” paper. The GBC is reinforcing the position that homosexuality is a deviation and is offering no solution to homosexuals, no path towards initiation and further purification, other than celibacy (which any sane person knows is only viable for a tiny select few) or conversion to heterosexuality (a notion that is widely seen as preposterous by anyone but the religious fundamentalists).

      • Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

        Hare Krishna Giridhari Prabhu.

        In your reply above you said “The GBC is reinforcing the position that homosexuality is a deviation and is offering no solution to homosexuals, no path towards initiation and further purification, other than celibacy (which any sane person knows is only viable for a tiny select few)”. What you say is somewhat correct. Homosex is a deviation. That has been established by Sastra and the the words of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada DID offer the ONLY solution to this situation but only for those who are sincere and seriously want to go back to Godhead – stop making decisions (especially spiritual decisions) with the demands of the genitals.

        Yes, celibacy is “only viable for a tiny select few”. Once again I say to you and others: Please read Srila Prabhupada’s books. In them it is mentioned again and again that “out of many millions of men”…I hope you know the story by now.

        So for now all of the genital driven folks will have to chant Hare Krishna, read Srila Prabhupada’s books, attend the programs, take only Krishna Prasadam and render some service to the Lord. In time the sincere will be able to control the genitals and become initiated by a bonafide Spiritual Master.

        Getting the mind out of the crotch is part of this purification process. In time if one follows this process ALL bodies (the gentalia especially) will become undesirable, gross and disgusting and one will become a Brahmana.

        Stop looking for short-cuts, just get in there and do it. I assure you it is worth it and the rest of us are here to help.

        Your servant,
        Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

  5. Bhaktin K.

    I guess my last message was not posted for some reason….because I was offended by Pandu’s response? I am offended. Calling people who are homosexual “filthy-gross” is no way to bring people to the love and light of Krishna. If you, Pandu, are a true devotee, how is your response remotely filled with the love that we are supposed to radiate because of our love for Krishna and His love for us? You might “hate the sin but love the sinner,” which is a problem in itself, but by saying “filthy-gross,” you are causing GLBT persons to turn away from Krishna consciousness rather than toward it. It’s just this kind of disgust shown by so many people that make GLBT people that they are not loved or wanted by anyone. GLBT people ARE indeed human beings, whether you like what they do or not. So way to go there. Nice show of Krishna’s love there, bud.

  6. Because I accept what Srila Prabhupada says, that makes me not in ISKCON?

    Everyone has an equal opportunity to give up sinful tendencies. Otherwise there is no chance of becoming a devotee.

  7. hopefuldevotee

    I am not giving up on ISCKON because of this one person. There just seems to me to be a very widespread hatred towards GLBT people within ISKCON. If there are many ISKCON devotees who are supportive and loving when it comes to this issue, I have not heard from, seen or read about them. I guess the loudest, most strident people are the ones who subscribe to the hate filled, disgusted camp. I wish the more supportive devotees would make their voices heard.

  8. Letter to: Lalitananda

    Hawaii
    26 May, 1975
    75-05-26

    My Dear Lalitananda dasa,
    Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated May 13rd, 1975 and have noted the contents. I am very sorry that you have taken to homosex. It will not help you advance in your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper your advancement. I do not know why you have taken to such abominable activities. What can I say? Anyway, try to render whatever service you can to Krishna. Even though you are in a very degraded condition Krishna, being pleased with your service attitude, can pick you up from your fallen state. You should stop this homosex immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your chances of advancing in spiritual life are nil. Show Krishna you are serious, if you are.
    I hope this meets you in good health.
    Your ever well-wisher,
    A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

    >>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Lalitananda — Hawaii 26 May, 1975

    • Jivananda dasa Vanacari

      Hare Krishna Pandu Prabhu

      I think this quote form His Divine Grace sums it up on this subject. Any sincere person would simply throw in the towel here and accept Srila Prabhupada’s higher authority. What kind of person would continue to challenge with “yeah-buts”, “howevers” and “maybes”? Perhaps someone who has an agenda they place higher than that of saving the fallen conditioned souls who are focused on their sexual preference?

  9. Srimad Bhagavatam 3.20.26:
    “Lord Brahmā, approaching the Lord, addressed Him thus: My Lord, please protect me from these sinful demons, who were created by me under Your order. They are infuriated by an appetite for sex and have come to attack me.

    Purport:
    “It appears here that the homosexual appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation of the demons by Brahmā. In other words, the homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life.”
    http://vedabase.net/sb/3/20/26/

    Srila Prabhupada welcomed everyone to give up sinful activities (in this case he even describes the homosexual “appetite” as demoniac, not only the activities) and take up the process of developing Krishna consciousness. The principle is to free ourselves from bodily desires so we can engage in real spiritual activity. I simply do not want to see people cheated out of the chance to become free from maya and experience real spiritual happiness. That is not hatred; it is real compassion. Hare Krishna.

  10. hopefuldevotee

    no one ever seems to talk about gay females, or lesbians. why is that? it’s disgusting for males to have sex with each other people say, but to a lot of men, even the idea of two women having sex is very appealing.

    ALSO, being homosexual is NOT ALL ABOUT SEX. It is about love between 2 people. I get so tired of people talking about how gross gays are because of what they do in the bedroom. It may not be your preference, and that’s fine, but remember that 2 gay people who are in a committed, monogamous relationship do all of the same things outside the bedroom that straight people do. Maybe you don’t want to believe it, but it’s true. Stop focusing on genitals and start focusing on the SOUL. Isn’t that what we are supposed to be doing anyway??

    • Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

      Dear hopeful devotee

      Why does LOVE BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE have to be either homo or hetero? If it isn’t ALL ABOUT SEX then why can you not love all people of ANY gender?

      Is the reason that people consider themselves gay or straight based simply on just loving someone? I think not. Otherwise if LOVE is the focus and NOT SEX why should one diferintiate which sex the one is that they are wanting to love? You confuse me. Please open my darkened eyes with the torchlight of you divine knowledge.

      Your servant,
      Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

  11. Genuine love of the soul is bhakti, devotional service, and its focus is Krishna, not another man or woman.

    Prabhupada: That is in spiritual world, not in this material… In the
    material world there is no love. It is lust. We are making business under
    the name of love. In the material world there cannot be love because…
    Suppose a girl loves a boy or a boy loves a girl. Both of them are actuated
    by sense gratification. So that is not love. That is not love. When there is
    question of sense gratification, that is not love. Just like there is little
    example. Just like mother loves the child. There is no question of sense
    gratification. Simply for the sake of love, the mother loves the child. It
    is simply a little example. Similarly, love means if I love you, I don’t
    want any return. Still, I love you. You may ill treat me. You may badly
    treat me. You neglect me. Still, I love you. There is no question of return
    from you. That is real love. That you cannot find in this material world.
    Because it is based on sense gratification, therefore there is love between
    a boy and girl, and as soon as there is little discrepancy, there is
    divorce. They are separated. Because the whole principle was on the basis of
    lust. So there is no love. Or we do not know what is meant by love. Love
    does not mean just a boy is attracted by a girl or a girl is attracted by
    a… That is not love. That is sense attraction. So in the material world
    there is no love. It is impossible. There is little, little example, just
    like I cited the example of mother and son or similar. That is also
    temporary. But real love is in the spiritual… That is Radha-Krsna. That is
    real love. There is no separation. There is no cheating. There is no
    divorce. There is no sex attraction. Simply for love’s sake, loving, that is
    real love.”

    >>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.1.2-5 — Montreal, October 23, 1968

  12. hopefuldevotee

    you’ve missed my point.

    “Genuine love of the soul is bhakti, devotional service, and its focus is Krishna, not another man or woman.”

    You are right about that. But even married devotees “love” each other. Would you say that married people can’t practice “genuine bhakti?”

    start loving people’s souls. Stop hating. Period.

  13. I’m not hating anyone. I’m just trying to uphold the principles that Srila Prabhupada taught, and am surprised to find opposition among devotees.

    Krishna says He is sex life which is not contrary to religious principles. My marriage is based on Krishna consciousness. Krishna directly told me I was not a suitable candidate for renunciation and that I should therefore get married. He told me whom to marry and that my marriage with her would gradually get me free from lust so that I could ultimately love Him. He told me that by naming my children after Him, my family would become free from material illusion. I have followed His orders and am seeing the results He predicted gradually manifest.

    I had been on my way to the forest to live alone as an ascetic on a spiritual quest when He saved me from the mayavada philosophy I was immersed in and placed me as a beginner on the path of bhakti. He taught me the basic principles of Bhagavad-gita, and gave me a brief taste of spiritual love so that I would know without a doubt that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He told me that to learn more about Him, I should read Srila Prabhupada’s books. He told me to get some devotee association. However Giridhari apparently wants me out of ISKCON because unlike him I do not want an unauthorized guru telling me Srila Prabhupada was wrong. I am simply following Krishna’s direct orders so that I can gradually become purified and develop my love for Him. I did not get married for companionship, but because Krishna said to marry this woman so we both could become devotees and hekp others too. Consequently we love each other very much on account of Krishna’s arrangement, and our love of Krishna is increasing as well. It is also a very favorable environment for our children to learn the principles of Krishna consciousness and naturally develop their love of Krishna. I feel very much blessed.

    So that is my situation. I have faith in Srila Prabhupada because it was his mercy that awakened me to Krishna enough to briefly see Him and hear from Him, and I just want to see that his teachings are respected because by his instructions anyone and everyone can become free from material conditioning and develop pure love of Krishna. If that is your idea of hatred, then I don’t know what else to say to you because I’m not at liberty to change anything I’ve learned from Srila Prabhupada and from Krishna to suit some popular idea of progress or so-called love.

    You’re free to think what you want, but if you think that there’s any hatred in Srila Prabhupada’s instructions then you’re quite wrong and due to not knowing love from hate. You sound like a child who wants candy for dinner and says his mother hates him for serving a healthy meal instead. Srila Prabhupada is your ever well wisher, and I’m just an insignificant servant trying my best to please him despite my fallen condition. Whatever development I have in real spiritual life or hope I have for advancement is only due to Srila Prabhupada’s mercy, and I have no intention of betraying him for any reason, certainly not for mundane popularity, even among those who call themselves devotees. So you can hate me if you want (atmavan manyate jagat), but that’s just your frustrated lust. (B.g 2.62-63; 3.37) Hare Krishna.

  14. Re: “ISKCON is aligning itself with groups that are subject to ridicule and farce.”

    BG 7.3: “Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth”

    Giridhari, Your proposal to go with the popular trend is to abandon the leadership of ISKCON’s Founder-Acarya, who knows Krishna in truth, and instead follow those who are not even endeavoring for perfecection.

    No one says gays can’t practice sadhana bhakti. They can chant Hare Krishna, honor prasadam and fast days, see the Deities, etc. However the principle is that advancement in spiritual life necessitates giving up sin. Nobody has shown that gay relationships (including so-called monogamy) curb lust, and Srila Prabhupada strongly criticized the endorsement of gay marriage by religious leaders, which plainly indicates that gay marriage does not help anyone to advance in spiritual life. Therefore supporting gay marriage cannot be a bona fide preaching strategy because it is a serious deviation from the principles of Krishna conaciousness.

    Giridhari, You are here faulting Srila Prabhupada, the GBC, and also your own guru maharaj to support popular vikarmi opinion that public acceptance of sexual perversion is social progress. Yet you have the nerve to say I’m not in ISKCON because I value Srila Prabhupada’s instructions. That was a low blow and a personal offense. If you’re referencing my inability to find any plausible evidence of his authorizing successor diksa gurus or terminating the rtvik-assisted system he instituted, then you are welcome to present any evidence you may have for my consideration. I would be happy to examine it and discuss it on your blog or mine. You’ve got my e-mail, so let me know.

    Hare Krishna.

    Sincerely,
    Pandu das

    • Giridhari Das

      Reply to Pandu Prabhu:

      I certainly don’t consider I am being offensive to my guru, Srila Prabhupada or the GBC. I’m just pointing out some of the practical faults of the current way ISKCON is dealing with homosexuals and the impact this can have in our preaching in general, what to speak with the homosexual members of this society. My main point has always been a simple one: we need to deal with this and not just ignore it.

      I don’t wish to discuss your ritvik ideas on this blog. However, Srila Prabhupada did leave ISKCON in the hands of the GBC and the GBC did categorically state that those who promote ritvik theory are subject to immediate probation and later expulsion. Srila Jayapataka Swami has written an entire book answering all the claims made by the ritviks, too. If that won’t convince you, nothing will. To be in ISKCON you must follow the same laws other members of ISKCON must follow. I’m sorry you took offense, but I’m just the messenger! I’m merely reiterating GBC policy.

      • Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

        Dear Giridhari Prabhu

        You are correct in your statement of the GBC’s ruling on the ritvik concoction.

        You also said “To be in ISKCON you must follow the same laws other members of ISKCON must follow”. If what you say is true (and it is) then why can you (and others) comply with the ruling of Srila Prabhupada on the homosex issue? It is VERY clear what our founder acarya had to say on the subject of homosex yet you (and others) keep trying to get the rest of ISKCON to make some special concession for those who consider themselves gay. Is this not very much like the ritviks who keep trying to push their “special agenda” instread of devoting thier time and efforts to spreading Krishna Consciousness?

        Gay people must follow the same laws other members of ISKCON must follow. You said it right. They must give up the consciousnes of comparing their genitals to the genitals of others and making spiritual decisions based on which gender they desire sex with. The next step is to give up the desire for sex all together.

        Regarding celibacy you have said that “any sane person knows is only viable for a tiny select few” but going back to Godhead is not a cheap thing and no matter how much you (and others) protest you cannot cheapen it.

        Any person who is sincere about getting out of this material world must transcend the consciousness of the genitals. I realize that this statement leaves a sour tast in you mouth but this is the rule of ISKCON and our sampradaya. Do you not think that Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisidhanta would agree?

        Your servant,
        Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

  15. Giridhari Prabhu, Hare Krishna. You are hereby challenged to an open and public debate on this matter. It can be moderated, if you prefer, or we can just “wing it” and let fly at each other. But before we discuss this further, I have some comments to make about your post and some other, general observations. I think that will make clearer the nature of my challenge and why I think it is in your best interests to accept it.

    Giridhari Prabhu (GP) wrote: “I’m taking my clues from the repression of Srila Hridayananda Das Goswami’s “gay blessing” and his earlier paper, “Vaishnava Moral Theology and Homosexuality” paper.”

    Exactly. And this is also my criticism of the GBC’s action. It doesn’t make sense to censure, or force, Maharaja to repudiate a policy or idea that he has argued at length without either a) getting Maharaja to repudiate his own idea, or b) instead of censuring him, whole heartedly accept his idea and then come down like a ton of annotated Bhagavad-gitas on whomever Maharaja and his followers think are ISKCON’s ultraconservative biggots. In arguing with others, Maharaja continues to refer to his thesis, which means the GBC has crammed some policy down his throat he rejects at heart. This is why I don’t believe that he has “moderated his position. He is clearly upset over what has transpired, and so are his disciples. Those of us who for years have had liberal orthodoxies crammed down our throats can empathize and agree that the GBC was wrong to do what it did.

    GP: “The GBC is reinforcing the position”

    The GBC isn’t reinforcing much of anything. That’s why their action failed to settle the matter, and their notable accomplishment has been pissing off pretty much everyone who has formed an opinion on the matter, which is pretty much everyone in ISKCON who has been “listening in”.

    GP: “that homosexuality is a deviation and is offering no solution to homosexuals, no path towards initiation and further purification,”

    But others have offered solutions. I write about it often enough at my blog. The problem is that you and your ilk have decided that any argument against your position is a product of “ultraconservative fanatics” and hence beneath argument. This can be empirically verified by the absence of addressing any substantial objections in whatever you all have written. There is nothing in anything Maharaja or any of his disciples have written on the matter that addresses or acknowledges a single substantial argument against gay monogamy and seeks to substantially respond to it. Maharaja’s thesis does not contain one. Nor have any of his disciples acknowledged any or tried to address them. It is as if you don’t think substantial objections exist at all.

    And even if all the so-called “ultraconservative religious fanatics” within ISKCON are in your estimation beneath answering, what about arguments being presented in mainstream society against such an arrangement? Are the conservatives (and a number of liberals, too) in mainstream society, who are against accommodating homosexual unions, just too stupid and have nothing meaningful to say on the matter?

    Surely, Maharaja’s public policy proposal (i.e. gay monogamy) was also meant to address this particular problem in mainstream society, not just ISKCON’s problems. At the very least, Maharaja’s thesis (and arguments presented by others in support of it) should be able to withstand the strongest arguments that would likely be presented against it, whether those arguments come from devotees or non-devotees. That would necessarily mean DEMONSTRATING that he has indeed considered relevant objections. They are out there, and they are not insubstantial. Unfortunately, Maharaja’s thesis doesn’t do that, nor has anything you or your godbrothers have ever written. That attests to your insularity.

    On this consideration, I challenge you to debate this matter openly and publically. The discussion should be about whether gay monogamy is good for gays and for society at large, whether Vaishnava society or mainstream society. I am also open to this debate being moderated.

    Of course, you could refuse this challenge on whatever pretext. But then don’t complain when others accuse you of being anti-intellectual and categorically dismissive of people who don’t agree with you. When you consistently can’t seem to find a substantial argument against your position, or an opponent worth engaging, that says more about you than anything your critics do or say.

    Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,

    Krishna Kirti Das

    • Giridhari Das

      Reply to Krishna Kirti Prabhu:

      Thank you for your invitation, but I’ll cordially decline. I’m neither passionate about the issue, nor an expert. I’m merely raising concern over the fact that the issue needs to be addressed by our leaders. I’m an active preacher and I need to know how to address the homosexuals who seeks instruction from me and who ask about how they can be initiated in ISKCON, etc.

      I like the idea of the debate, however. I suggest you have this debate with a member of GALVA, who am sure will be much more prepared to discuss this point.

      • Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

        Dear Giridhari Prabhu

        Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

        You said “I’m an active preacher and I need to know how to address the homosexuals who seeks instruction from me and who ask about how they can be initiated in ISKCON, etc.” My dear Prabhu, you should not discriminate against the homosexual. You instruct him/her in the same way you would anyone interested in becoming initiated. The standard for initiation established by our founder acarya Srila Prabhupada is the same for homosexuals as it is for heterosexuals: chant 16 rounds daily and follow the 4 (that’s four) regulative principles. Is it any harder for the homosexual to follow the 4 (that means all 4) regulative principles? I would like to hear your answer on this please.

        Even if it is harder for the homosexual to follow all of the regs, too bad. We simply cannot modify the 16 & 4 program for anyone. I am really surprised to hear an “active preacher” (especially one who has taken initiation) ask this question. This is usually one of the first things we learn about Krishna Consciousness.

        Becoming an initiated disciple means giving some things up (namely those things that would impede advancement in Krishna Consciousness). Illicit sex is one of those things (I am going to assume that you know the other 3). Homosexual sex, which is illicit sex according to Srila Prabhupada, must be abandoned as well.

        You see, homosexual sexual desires can never be purified or used as an offering to Lord Krishna. Whereas heterosexual sexual desires can be purified by having sex according to religious principles (that would be having sex for procreation to bring devotee children into a family/community of devotees).

        It might be too much to ask a homosexual to stop being a homosexual but it is not too much to ask them to stop practicing homosexual acts (and any other illicit sexual acts as well) if they sincerely want to become initiated. Just as it is not too much to ask a heterosexual to give up heterosexual acts (except for procreation) in order to be initiated. I really doesn’t matter what your sexual preference is. The process of becoming initiated is the same for everyone.

        You see it really doesn’t matter what we want or what we prefer. It only matters what Guru and Krishna want. That is the qulaificaion for initiation and liberation. Surely you already knew this.

        Your servant,
        Jivananda dasa Vanacari

      • Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

        Dear Giridhari Prabhu

        Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

        Please think about what I am about to ask you and then please give me an honest, well thought our answer: exactly what is UNFAIR about the law of Karma?

        Karma means “as ye sew so shall ye reap” and “what goes around comes around” and that our activities/desires control our future position.

        If you agree that this is true then how can one’s current situation be labeled UNFAIR? What ever we are suffering or enjoying at present is due to our past activities and desires. So, with this in mind, we must agree that if one is homosexual in this lifetime it is ONLY because of their choice – either in this life or a previous one. It is not forced on anyone rather it something that the individual achieved on their own.

        Their lust is so strong that they act as if forced to act in a certain way. Actually Arjuna asks Krishna this very question in Bhagavada Gita 3-36: Arjuna said: O descendant of Vrsni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force? (Ref. VedaBase => Bg 3.36). To this Lord Krishna replies in the next verse: “The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material mode of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring sinful enemy of this world.”

        Therefore if by lusty desires one finds him(her)self in a body that prefers homosexuality then who is to be blamed? Are they a “victim” of anything other than their own lust? They may say “but I didn’t “decide” to become a homosexual I was born one. This is clearly not true. They decided (through free will) to behave in a certain way (either in this life or in a previous one) that lead them to their current situation. Intimately it WAS their decision and it was not pushed on them.

        So hear we have a group of people who, due to their own lusty desires and actions either in this life or a previous one, are homosexuals. They say they want to become devotees of Krishna and become initiated and go back to Godhead while at the same time they demand that they be allowed “conjugal love” in the process. They don’t agree that they are lower than the straw in the street and they are not as humble as the grass and as tolerant as trees and they don’t offer all respect to others. Instead they call anyone that disagrees with their chosen life style a homophobe and a hater.

        You say “Conjugal relationships are not all about sex”. Would you not agree that sex is the major player in a “conjugal relationship”? Check your dictionary here. Maybe it’s just about cuddling, hugging, fondling and a little kissing but not about something that would make a baby, right? But these things ARE sex and lead to the making babies thing.

        What I gather from what you are saying here is that we (ISKCON and the rest of the world) should change our rules, disregard sastra and the words of our founder acarya as well as the other acaryas and allow a special place in ISKCON and create a special process to become purified just for them just because they are so special and unfortunate.

        It just might be very much more difficult for a homosexual person to become a pure devotee than heterosexual persons. That doesn’t mean that they are being victimized by the big mean old heterosexuals. If you believe in the law of Karma then you must agree that everyone is where they are because of them – not others.

        Therefore I say again: homosexuals (like everyone else) must follow the 4 regulative principles (all 4) and chant 16 rounds per day to become initiated. If they feel that this process would deny them of “conjugal relationships” and they can’t live with that and want to find another process that would tolerate their sexual proclivities then they have free will to do so.

        If however they are sincere and want to go back to Godhead I will admit that they might have a “hard row to hoe”. But we are there for them and will help them in any way we can. If they feel they cannot do this then I remind you of Krishna’ words in Bhagavada Gita 7-14: “This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.”

        Does Lord Krishna not promise that he will supply what we lack to attain him if we surrender? Krishna and His devotees will help the person who identifies themselves as a homosexual to overcome all obstacles to going back to Godhead. The first step is to become humble and not make so many demands along the way. It may be harder for these poor souls but we will all help and encourage them all the way through the process. We want them to succeed.

        Your servant,
        Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

      • Giridhari Das

        Dear Prabhu, obeisances.

        Karma is fair. Our reaction to other people’s karma may or may not be fair.

        You are suggesting a KC process which is far too harsh, in my view, and I do not believe this is in line with Lord Caitanya or Srila Prabhupada.

        Srila Prabhupada recommended that those who cannot stop eating meat, should eat lesser meats, not cows. Yet, for you, there is simply no alternative. Homosexuals must be celibate and, not only that, but live alone. In other words, homosexuals must take sannyas FIRST to be able to follow KC. (Coincidentally, this is the process suggested by the mayavadis in the CC, criticized by Prabhupada.) And if they cannot do that, then they should go somewhere else for their spiritual enlightenment. Nice…

        I think you have made your views quite clear, so I will no longer answer your further comments.

        Your servant,
        Giridhari Das

      • Jim Champion

        I have been following this conversation and can see your point but have a question.

        I have have been reading Srila Prabhupada’s books and it seems that one thing seems to be repeated again and again in them. It seems to me that he says basically to become initiated one must become celibate and only have sex when trying to produce offspring. Am I correct?

      • Giridhari Das

        Dear Jivananda Prabhu (aka Jim Champion), obeisances.

        I’m happy you are crusading for celibacy, as I also believe this is a wonderful standard to follow. I do believe, however, that most cannot be as pure as you, and thus require some more flexibility, following Prabhupada’s less strict definition of licit sex as sex within marriage. In my general ISKCON experience, gurus and the leadership in general do not inquire into the details of a married couples sex life. Prabhupada also did not. The scriptures (Manu Samhita and Srimad Bhagavatam, for example), also do not promote the standard that sex is strictly and only for procreation. There is a lot of sex NOT for procreation in the Bhagavatam (such as the 100 years of honey moon, including 9 fold yogic expansion for increased sex, by Kardama Muni and Devahuti, the Lord’s parents). I personally recommend, thus, that while people seek this perfect standard of having total control of their sexual desires to the point of having sex only if they want to procreate, we should also allow them to get to this stage naturally, in holy matrimony.

        Your servant,
        Giridhari Das

      • Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

        Dear Giridhari Prabhu

        PAMHO. AGTSP.

        Sorry for not replying sooner but I have been travelling.

        Prabhu I have a few questions.

        First: are you telling us that when you were initiated that you were given the impression that sex for any reason other that for procreation was “OK”? When it came to the part in your initiation vows regarding illicit sex did your Guru give you a “wink – wink” or something? Did he come out and tell you that sex for enjoyment is fine so long as you only “do it” with your wife?

        Secondly: where did you get the idea that Srila Prabhupada had a “less strict definition of licit sex ” (for initiated disciples)? Search the Vedabase and please let me know where Srila Prabhupada said this. Please.

        Lastly: are you suggesting that we can or should imitate the pastimes of the great personalities as outlined in the Srimad Bhagavatam?

        Awaiting you answers I remain your servant,
        Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

      • Giridhari Das

        Dear Jivananda Prabhu, obeisances.

        You ask me 3 questions, here are the replies:

        1) The vow only states, “no illicit sex”, so there is no need for wink, winks.
        2) Prabhupada dozens and dozens of times says that illicit sex is sex outside of marriage. Other times he says sex is only for procreation. Here are some of the many, many quotes where licit sex is defined as sex within marriage:

        “Sex, of course, is allowed in married life…”

        >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 4.22.34

        “Illicit sex is sex that violates the laws given in the scriptures.”*

        >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 4.27.5

        Sex with one’s wife according to the scriptural injunctions* is also accepted as brahmacarya (celibacy)

        >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 5.5.10, SB 5.5.11, SB 5.5.12, SB 5.5.13, SB 5.5.10-13

        * please note that the Manu Samhita states that a man has the duty to seek and give pleasure to his wife and does NOT state that sex is only to be had once a month

        “The injunction that one must approach his wife for sex life is explained by the Vaisnava acaryas as follows. Within the material world almost every man is very lusty and desires passionate sex life with every attractive woman he meets, or with any woman at all. Actually, for an ordinary materialistic man it is an accomplishment if he can restrict himself to relationships with his lawfully wedded wife. But because familiarity breeds contempt, the natural tendency is for the husband to gradually become envious or resentful of the wife and desire illicit connections with other women. Such a mentality is most sinful and abominable, and the Vedic scripture therefore orders that one must approach his actual wife, with a desire to beget children, and thus curtail the tendency toward illicit sexual connection with other women. Were there no such Vedic injunction ordering one to approach his wife, many men would naturally be inclined to neglect their wives and pollute other women by illicit connection.”

        >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.5.11

        “A person whose sex life is restricted in marriage is also called a brahmacari.”

        >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 3.28.4

        “For example, sex enjoyment is a necessity for the conditioned soul, and sex enjoyment is allowed under the license of marriage ties. According to scriptural injunctions, one is forbidden to engage in sex relationships with any women other than one’s wife. ”

        >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bg 3.34

        “Marriage on the principles of religious life is therefore current in all civilized human society because that is the way for restricted sex life. This restricted, unattached sex life is also a kind of yajna because the restricted householder sacrifices his general tendency toward sense gratification for higher, transcendental life.”

        >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bg 4.26

        “…but according to the Vedic injunctions, sex is allowed only in marriage…”

        >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 4.26.6

        “He should not indulge in sex outside of married life, for sex is sanctioned in the scripture only in marriage, not otherwise. This is called celibacy. ”

        >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bg 17.14

        “For example, one who is addicted to sex enjoyment is taught to accept religious marriage and enjoy sex pleasure with his wife.”

        >>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.21.43

        There are many other such quotes. The point being that one can understand that it is not possible to simply quit sex. One must gradually purify one’s natural tendency for sex by restricting it to holy matrimony.

        3) What great men will do, common men will follow. The stories are there to give us examples of how to act. Repeated stories of kings and sages enjoying sex life with their wives without having children cannot be there exclusively to teach us NOT to follow their example.

        Your servant,
        Giridhari Das

      • Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

        Dear Giridhari Prabhu

        PAMHO. AGTSP.

        I can tell that you are set on what you believe. I could also give many, many quotes from Srila Prabhupada however I don’t think it would change your mind.

        I feel that your concept to “sex in marriage” is a little watered down but I think you are still a very nice devotee and I am glad you are part of our ISKCON. Please continue to strive to reach a higher platform and encourage others to do so as well.

        At the same time please do not let yourself become convinced that the watered down version is the all in all. It would be a dis-service to yourself and those to whom you preach to do so. Please do not be like those who are blind because they choose not to see as there are none so blind as them.

        I wish you all happiness and peace in the service of Guru and Krishna.

        Your servant,
        Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

      • Giridhari Das

        I truly appreciate your comments and your blessings.

        Thank you, Prabhu.

      • Giridhari Das

        Dear Prabhu, obeisances.

        You are missing the point, by disregarding the emotional aspect of conjugal relationships. Conjugal relationships are not all about sex. As you can see above, in comments made on this blog post, homosexuals seeks romantic union just like you and I seek it. Only, they seek it with members of their own sex, not the opposite one. Such a person may seek initiation and she/he will not have a very convincing answer from ISKCON as to how to proceed. Would it be fair to ask her/him to give up ever having any conjugal relationships in her/his life? No, of course that would not be fair. We are not talking about sex, just as we do not ask heterosexuals about their sex life when they are married.

        Your servant,
        Giridhari Das

  16. hopefuldevotee

    Pandu das, it’s a “low blow” and a “personal offense” when you say that I hate you. I do not.

    I am also personally offended by sexism, homophobia, anything resembling the caste system, etc. So when I disagree with Prabhupada, it’s because I believe in equality among all, no matter what outer dress a soul may have. I don’t hate him either. I just disagree.

    And it is hate, Pandu das, when you say that gay people are “filthy gross.” Your disgust makes it necessary for you to view homosexuals as lesser beings than heterosexuals. In my view, there are no lesser beings. If that’s blasphemy, then I guess I’m a blasphemer. Gay marriage would no more curb lust than heterosexual marriage does. Married devotees, whether they will admit to it or not, are lustful. Unless, of course, you marry not for love but for convenience. I guess there might not be any lust in that case.

    I am not a child, as you say. Please treat me with the respect you would want paid to yourself.

  17. I agree with Sitapati Prabhu. There is no official stance or statement from the GBC on the issue of same-sex marriage. While I assume they oppose this new legal reality it would nevertheless be helpful to set up some guidelines in this regard (for both full-time and congregational members). Then both sides would know exactly where the GBC stands and present their disagreements accordingly. I’m sure the matter will be addressed at some point–they’ve just been avoiding it for obvious reasons.

  18. Dear Hopefuldevotee,

    Hare Krishna. I only suggested you might hate me for my views just to show you how it feels to be accused like that. If that was inappropriate, then I apologise. Often it does seem like gays hate those who oppose their agenda.

    Srila Prabhupada taught that equality exists on the spiritual platform, whereas materially everyone is in different positions. Spirit souls are in all kinds of living entities from the microbe to the cabbage, flea, rat, dog, pedophile, saint, and demigod. Spiritually they’re all spirit souls in different bodies, but do you really see them as equal on the material platform? Would you give your life for a cabbage, or do you take the cabbage’s life to sustain your own? Krishna consciousness is not promoting anything artificial like material equality. If you want equality you have to divorce yourself from material conditioning and engage only in spiritual activity.

    I admit that there is lust in my marriage. It is prescribed for the purpose of alleviating that condition, and the cure is a slow process. I acknowledge my fallen condition and do not try to change the Krishna conscious philosophy to make myself feel less guilty.

    Lust is a material disease, and homosexuality is a more advanced stage of that disease. As a mild disease requires some restriction, a more critical disease demands additional restraint. So heterosexual lust can be cured while practicing bhakti in marriage with limited sex, but curing homosexual lust demands celibacy from the bhakta. Ultimately our intermediate goal is to become free from lust entirely, so in one sense a serious homosexual bhakta is taking a more direct approach. If you’re gay, why not use that to your advantage and take the fast track to love of Godhead rather than arguing for a consolation that may not help at all?

    Since so much objection has been made over my calling gay sex as “filthy-gross,” to be fair I will admit to a potential personal bias. In my youth I was groped on several occasions by gay older boys and by men, and I did not like it all. The same happened as an adult. Yet I do not believe that is a real bias. Before learning about Krishna consciousness I became a “reiki master,” and once I went to an AIDS convention to offer free healing there. I think that would be strong evidence that I don’t hate gays. Yet one man ended up scheduling additional appointments, and during a treatment in my home he grabbed my privates. Almost every gay man I’ve known has sexually assaulted me in one way or another. That to me is evidence of their excessive lust in general. Once, even though I was not a drinker (again this before hearing about Krishna) I had a girlfriend who got me drunk and invited a bisexual man over for a threesome without telling me beforehand. Though I was dizzy almost to the point of unconsciousness, I managed to beg that this man not rape me, and fortunately I was not touched. Still I felt violated once again.

    So that may reveal a little about why I find homosexuality so repulsive. Yet also please consider that I’ve changed many of my personal pre-Krishna conscious views to align with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, and I do not believe these personal experiences with gays have made me more opposed to homosexuality than Srila Prabhupada’s teachings require. For instance, I do not feel homosexual axtivity is worse than eating beef from slaughtered cows (I’ve not seen any such comparison made by Srila Prabhupada). I’m strongly opposed to the former and much more patient with the latter.

    I hope I’ve gotten my point across. Hare Krishna.

  19. Re: “For instance, I do not feel homosexual activity is worse than eating beef from slaughtered cows (I’ve not seen any such comparison made by Srila Prabhupada). I’m strongly opposed to the former and much more patient with the latter.”

    It appears that I misspoke. Reverse that last sentence.

  20. Ankit

    i guess hatters or opposer you should think about it, Krishna Loves all his devotees, whether he is straight Gay or Transsexual…me or you cant decide what is wrong and what is right …
    he made all of us we all offer service to his lotus feet
    thats wht finally matters

  21. hopefuldevotee

    You are woefully misinformed if you think most/all gay people are pedophiles/molesters. While I admire your devotion to Krishna consciousness, I don’t at all admire you spreading misinformation like that. I am gay, and I am not a pedophile. Neither are any of the many gay and lesbian people I know. That’s a simply ignorant statement for you to make. I am sorry you were abused by these people. There are people out there, both gay and straight, who molest and sexually assault other people. I detest that kind of behavior, which is a crime of the most egregious sort. But please don’t make such sweeping generalizations. When you do that, you put me in mind of fundamentalist Christian preachers who say that all gays are reprehensible deviant abusers who caused hurricane Katrina. You may agree with that too. lol I am just trying to make the point that I see fanaticism in both you and those preachers.

    I encourage you to stick to your spiritual principles. I never thought I could change your mind on this issue. I just ask that you have respect. I don’t know if that’s possible, but that’s my hope.

  22. Dear Hopefuldevotee,

    Please don’t misunderstand or mischaracterize my view. I was never subjected to any kind pedophilia, only groped by surprise when I was old enough to stop it immediately. I never accused all gays of being like that, but simply stating the fact that virtually every gay male I’ve known has proven to be unable to control his lust. That is not a generalization but an statement of personal experience. I do not want this discussion to become too become about me; I only explained my experience for the sake of disclosure and so readers here would have some idea of part of why I find homosexuality repulsive.

  23. Vrajabhumi

    Krishna Kirti Das,

    What is there to debate about?

    Should I debate members of the Ku Klux Klan on the ethics and morality or social impact of racism against Christian non-Caucasians?

    Should I debate members of the GOP on the ethics and morality or social impact of fascism wrapped in patriotism?

    Should I debate members of the Taliban on the ethics and morality or social impact of their treatment of women and girls?

    Should I debate members of anyone on the ethics and morality or social impact of anything which is promoting the taking away of the rights you enjoy as a white male in America?

    Why should I debate over a topic which should be self-evident, i.e. equal rights and tolerance for everyone as long as they do no harm to others?

    The only people who oppose equal rights for all are people who are either mentally deranged, following a religious doctrine, or are immoral and malevolent.

    Whichever of the above 3 you are it’s pointless to debate you over equal rights and tolerance for everyone regardless of their race, creed, ethnicity, or sexual preferences because your ideology is not based on objectivity.

    Obviously your beliefs about equal rights are caused by your religious beliefs. Without an objective cause for your beliefs in support of denying the rights you enjoy to Gays (or women or black people) your beliefs will be based upon subjective ideology, and therefore cannot be objectively debated because your conviction is based on subjective opinions — which you take as perfect and beyond reproach due to your belief that those opinions are shared with and come from God.

    What you really seek is a religious debate about who or what source is authentically representing the will of God. Therefore you rejected your diksha guru because you believed he deviated from what your perceived as God’s commandments on how to treat Gay people. therefore in your view he was no longer representing God and should be rejected as a guru.

    How did you come to that conclusion? Is their scriptural sanction for taking away of rights you enjoy — from people with homosexual lifestyles? I have never seen anything like that in scripture.

    The Kama Sutra, while rejected by many modern Gaudiya Vaishnavas, was accepted by previous exalted Gaudiya Vaishnava acharyas as bona fide scripture. Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura and Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami both mention the Kama Sutra as bona fide scripture. In the Kama Sutra homosexual relations are talked about and treated as normal behavior.

    The real source of your beliefs is from A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. He harshly condemned “homosex” and the people who engage in it. He also harshly condemned jews. He also said that black people are so low class that they should be kept as slaves. He also said that dictatorship was a good form of governing — as long as the dictator followed his teachings and implemented them on his subjects, e.g. slavery?

    He also wanted girls to be excluded from receiving an academic education beyond learning how to read and write. He also said that there have never been highly qualified female scientists, etc, in human history. He also said that girls should be married off at puberty because the first time they have sex they will love it so much that they will love and be devoted to that man for the rest of her life. He also said that divorce is always the woman’s fault.

    Are his views purely representing God?

    He also said that if a person has sex for any other reason than procreation than they are no better than animals and cannot make spiritual progress — as if rubbing your genitals for a few minutes will be some type of preventative towards your ability to understand philosophy and follow the path of yoga sadhana.

    Question: If you have sex for procreation how is that any different from any other type of sex in how it affects you? If you have sex once a year for pleasure, and no other sex at all, are you less of a person and less able to become God conscious than a person who has sex every single day of the year while trying to impregnate 50 wives? (polygamy was supported by Prabupada)

    What is there to debate? Should people who are inherently not attracted to the opposite sex, by the arrangement of God — should they be treated with less rights and less respect than people who are inherently attracted to the opposite sex by the arrangement of God?

    Why should people suffer because other people are bigoted towards them? Why would God support bigotry against people who due to the arrangement of God are attracted to the same gender and not attracted to the opposite gender? It makes no sense that God would support bigotry against people who the way God has arranged them to be.

    What is wrong with homosexuality anyways? What is the difference between sex between a man and a woman or sex between the same gender? A couple of body parts — the rest is the same. Why would God be against people of the same gender having sexual relations? How do you know if God is or isn’t?

    It comes down to who you accept as representing God.

    The Kama Sutra, which which was accepted as the bona fide authority on sexuality by previous acharyas in the Gaudiya sampradaya — teaches homosexual relations as normal. Therefore one can conclude that homosexuality is not see as bad by God.

    In other scriptures we can find where homosexuality is seen as a minor contamination — as in the Manu Samhita you are told to take a ritual bath if you engage in a homosexual act.

    Is the Manu Samhita bona fide scripture? Many Hindus reject it because it appears to be have been heavily interpolated over the years. We don’t see, for example, harsh punishments for caste trangressions in the Gita or the Bhagavatam, etc. But we do see such things in the Manu Samhita. Those teachings go against the teachings of equality between the varnas (castes) in the varnashrama system that is seen in other scriptures. Because there are no extant original scriptures written before the Muslim takeover of the Indian subcontinent, we cannot know just how much scriptures have been interpolated after their arrival. We do know that homosexuality is condemned in Islam as a sin, so they wouldn’t be responsible for interpolating the Kama Sutra in support of homosexuality. But they would have liked to create conflict between castes in their attempt to divide and conquer politically and militarily. Therefore they did have incentive to interpolate the lawbook for Hindus — the Manu Samhita — in order to try and create conflict, and to make it more in line with their belief system which condemns homosexuality as sinful. Other scriptures were able and willing to be interpolated by muslim rulers. In order to get Hindus to accept their Islamic beliefs as bona fide (to make it easier for them to rule), it would have been in their best interest to interpolate Hindu scriptures to reflect Islamic beliefs.

    We Must Think for Ourselves

    from The Bhagavata by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

    The Bhagavata teaches us that God gives us truth as He gave it to Vyasa: when we earnestly seek for it.

    Truth is eternal and unexhausted. The soul receives a revelation when anxious for it. The souls of the great thinkers of the bygone ages, who now live spiritually, often approach our inquiring spirit and assist in its development. Thus Vyasa was assisted by Narada and Brahma.

    Our Shastras, or in other words, books of thought, do not contain all that we could get from the infinite Father.

    No book is without its errors.

    God’s revelation is absolute truth, but it is scarcely received and preserved in its natural purity. We have been advised in the 14th Chapter of 11th Skandha of the Bhagavata to believe that truth when revealed is absolute, but it gets the tincture of the nature of the receiver in course of time and is converted into error by continual exchange of hands from age to age. New revelations, therefore, are continually necessary in order to keep truth in its original purity. We are thus warned to be careful in our studies of old authors, however wise they are reputed to be.

    Here we have full liberty to reject the wrong idea, which is not sanctioned by the peace of conscience. Vyasa was not satisfied with what he collected in the Vedas, arranged in the Puranas and composed in the Mahabharata. The peace of his conscience did not sanction his labors. It told him from within, “No, Vyasa! You cannot rest contented with the erroneous picture of truth which was necessarily presented to you by the sages of bygone days. You must yourself knock at the door of the inexhaustible store of truth from which the former ages drew their wealth. Go, go up to the fountainhead of truth, where no pilgrim meets with disappointment of any kind.” Vyasa did it and obtained what he wanted. We have been all advised to do so.

    Liberty then is the principle which we must consider as the most valuable gift of God. We must not allow ourselves to be led by those who lived and thought before us. We must think for ourselves and try to get further truths which are still undiscovered. In the Bhagavata we have been advised to take the spirit of the Shastras and not the words. The Bhagavata is therefore a religion of liberty, unmixed truth and absolute love.

  24. Pingback: Krishna Kirti Das: Master Masterdebater « Hare Krishna Women

  25. Gaurasundara

    Vrajabhumi,

    How about debating whether it is honest of you to conceal the fact that you are not a woman but actually Shiva das, the dude from Hawaii who believes among other oddities that Michael Jackson is an incarnation of Krishna and Jessica Alba Srimati Radharani? How about we start from that lunacy eh?

    • Vrajabhumi

      I kept getting this same comment from this weirdo on my blog a while ago.

      • Gaurasundara

        “Vrajabhumi”,

        No you don’t “keep getting” this same comment in your blog because you actually got it only once. It was sent with a request that it not be published. The author wanted to give you a chance to reflect on your own deception towards your readers. Under the false name “Vrajabhumi” you claim to be “unveiling the sexism, misogyny, deceptions, fascism, and racism taught by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness”. But you don’t disclose to readers that you are actually a man, Shiva Das from Mauii. That would be a minor detail if it weren’t for your persistent charge on Srila Prabhupada that he deviated from the teachings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Gosvamis. Such charge is ludicrous and extremely dishonest in the face of your own lunatic deviations such as that you believe and preach that Michael Jackson is an incarnation of Krishna and Crispin Mills Balaram.

        Obviously these are important enough details to disclose to if one is to “debate” deviations in Gaudiya sidhanta.

        At least have the honesty to use your own identity. And uphold your opinion with courage.

        Like Prabhupada did.

  26. Vrajabhumi wrote: “Should I debate members of the Ku Klux Klan on the ethics and morality or social impact of racism against Christian non-Caucasians?”

    That is why your position is anti-intellectual. It’s based on sentiment only, not on any established rational position.

    And, I might add, SP was unequivocally against encouraging the homosexual lifestyle. The evidence for this has already been proferred by others–here and elsewhere–so I won’t belabor posting it here.

    p.s. I appreciate Giridhari Prabhu entertaining on his forum the views of people he has deep disagreements with. This is especially so at a time when, understandably, he has ample reason to be upset. That is to his credit.

  27. Vrajabhumi

    Krishna Kirti

    It would appear bizarre to an average person who looks at our debating approach to hear that you believe your approach is “intellectual” and that mine is “emotional”. The sum and substance of your approach consists solely of:

    Whatever Prabhupada said is automatically rational, “intellectual”, correct, and beyond reproach. And conversely whatever opinion is different from Prabhupada — is automatically irrational and “emotional”, incorrect and beyond the slightest hope of ever being worthy of respect, what to speak of having any truth to it at all. Therefore if someone has a different opinion from Prabhupada — they are wrong regardless of any other source of “intellectual” approach or conception.

    Your approach is the opposite of “intellectual” because it is based purely on your own subjective faith. For you to claim that my approach is anti-intellectual is delusional. This is why I said debating you is impossible — your sole source of determining “what is rational or irrational” is whatever Prabhupada said about something.

    You seem to believe that if you use 10 dollar words in support of whatever Prabhupada said, or in opposition to whatever differs from his POV, confirs on you and your approach the mantle of “Lord high muckity muck of intellecutal superiority. When in fact any actual rational person would see you as a religious fundamentalist who only seeks to defeat any opinion that differs from your subjective religious faith. That is not intellectualism, it is the exact opposite.

  28. Intellectualism won’t save us from material conditioning. I accept Srila Prabhupada’s teachings because of his pure devotion to Krishna. The goal is uninterrupted, pure devotional service to please Krishna. We cannot speculate on what pleases Krishna. We have to learn that from someone who knows Krishna, and without a doubt Srila Prabhupada knows Krishna.

  29. hopefuldevotee

    Vrajabhumi — Thank you.

    • Caitanya dasa

      What is this rascal demon Vrajabhumi doing on here? She is an outright offender to SP, having blasphemied him many, many times. She should be immediately kicked out. What is the use of discussing with such demons?

      To Pandu: It has also been my experience that gay men can’t seem to be monogamous. I have also had that experience a few times where gay men have tried to come on to me. I also agree, they are filthy.

      das,
      Caitanya dasa

      • Vrajabhumi

        Here is Caitanya Das’s latest comment on my blog (with expletive deleted)

        “Maybe I should just slice you into a thousand pieces, you f******g little bitch.”

        You can deny if it you like, but here is the thing; wordpress records the ip address of everyone who leaves a comment. Even though you signed this comment “anonymous” you have the same ip address from when you used your name in a previous comment when you were advertising your blog. It’s funny that a person like you who complains that western devotees are not Vaishnava like enough in their behavior makes such comments to someone whose only “offense” is to be critical of sexist, racist, homophobic, misogynistic and perverted theology on a blog. But since you are a pure hearted follower of your guru I guess that entitles you to kill me.

        As for you Gaurasundara (or whoever you really are) I received 3 0r 4 comments from you on my blog saying the same thing. Being demented seems to also affect your memory.

  30. Jenna

    I think hate is filthy. I think hatred towards all of God’s children is filthy.

  31. hopefuldevotee

    “Maybe I should just slice you into a thousand pieces, you f******g little bitch.”

    Wow, such violent and ungodly language, threatening physical violence on someone, calling him/her a “b*tch.” Can anyone say
    H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y?????

    I see that some ISKCON “devotees” are nowhere near as “Krishna conscious” as they would have us believe. Very sad.

    • Do you think anger and violence cannot be used in Krishna’s service? If so, you might want to read Bhagavad-gita again.

      I would agree, however, that many ISKCON devotees are not as Krishna conscious as they would like others to believe, but who that is is another issue. Especially in the current discussion, many participants are putting forth their own ideas as if they were Vaisnava philisophy, when they seem to be closer to mayavada instead.

      The contamination of Vaisnava teachings with mayavada is something I’m proud to hate.

      • hopefuldevotee

        I’m not sure if I believe violence can ever be in God’s service. I just know that threatening violence against someone with whom one disagrees, someone who is only known to one through a blog…is cowardly and definitely not in God’s service.

        How do you decide which violence is for Krishna’s service? Would it be ok with Krishna if you assaulted a gay person/liberal/woman/non-devotee, etc. etc? Even if one is not a pacifist, there’s got to be a line drawn somewhere. We, as human beings, cannot commit violence whenever we feel like it, even if we do say “It’s for Krishna!” If you disagree passionately with something another person says or writes, do you then have the right to slice that person into pieces? I hope you’d say no. But I have certainly been surprised before.

  32. Giridhari Das

    Dear Prabhus, shanti-shanti-shanti!

    From now on I will only approve (or allow to remain online) comments that are directly related to the post itself.

    Your servant,
    Giridhari Das

  33. For the record, I’ve never been inclined to violence, except that I was raised in a meat-eating family, though I didn’t realize how awful that was until college. Nor do I think the present issue warrants chopping people or even threats or vulgarity. However I share these devotees’ frustration in dealing with someone whose only connection to ISKCON seems to be for commit offenses against Srila Prabhupada. I’m not sure of the best way to deal with it. If someone does not understand the principle of surrender to the acarya, and instead blasphemes him repeatedly, the person’s intelligence becomes corrupted, making spiritual understanding impossible. There is no use trying to debate with such a person, and indeed having them silenced would be merciful to them. In a different time or place that would be an appropriate response, a matter of duty, but not in our contemporary culture which is so perverted. So I try to avoid such persons’ writing. Krishna consciousness is much too precious to risk losing it due to such bad association.

  34. http://bit.ly/TSsyv

    This Washington Post article indicates that the video opposing gay marriage expresses a legitimate concern over the loss of religious freedom.
    http://bit.ly/TSsyv

    The other video is a comedian’s joke.

    • hopefuldevotee

      How is my being able to marry a threat to your religious freedom? You will still be able to think, believe, know, preach and chant, for example. You will still be able to write anti-gay blog entries, replies, articles, etc. You will still have the freedom of expression, association, religion, speech, etc…freedoms we all hold dear as Americans. You will still be able to try your best to win more “converts.” You will still be able to follow your 4 regulative principles.

      What, exactly, will change as far as your ability to practice, preach and believe in Krishna, guru, Prabhupada if I am allowed to marry?

  35. TBC

    One of the goals of devotees is to cease sense gratification… one should only be interested in serving Krsna.

    If you want to follow the regulative principles, theres no sex possible in a same-sex marriage. And why would you marry someone as a friend?

    If you want homosexual marriage it’s fine, but remeber you are doing so to please your desire and lust, and you cannot possibly be a devotee.

    Just like intoxication, gambling and meat eating, ilicit sex(which includes all homosexual sex) is a principle you can choose to follow or not. It’s about the misuse of your independence and freedom.

    • TBC said: “And why would you want to marry someone as a friend?”

      Most marriages, as they mature, end up as platonic friendships anyway, so why not? People marry not only for sex and children but also for life-long companionship. This is no less true for same-sex couples, who often marry later in life–say in their forties or so–when sex is either nil or of much less concern than companionship.

      I agree that homosexual behavior is considered illicit sex within ISKCON, but same-sex marriage (and indeed all marriage) is about limiting sex and eventually giving it up altogether. Same-sex couples initially limit themselves to a single partner and eventually, as they advance together in Krsna consciousness, abandon sex altogether.

      I know of several Vaishnava couples who are in long-lasting same-sex marriages that are also platonic. I don’t think we should minimize the human need for life companionship. For many people, gay or straight, it is a basic requirement.

  36. Gopal Krishna

    Dandavats Prabhu’s, I’m a gay man. I was born and raised in ISKCON. My pains for being gay is due to many child abuses in my childhood by all straight bramacharis and grhastha men. A count of 27 men molested and raped me in over 18 years starting when I was only 6. Now I’m. I am partly to blame. 1st, that it is my karma. 2nd it is a very bad thing to do to a child. Leaving him with a life ahead of him that is full of hatred and disgust from the straight society of men and women. I had no choice as my being gay was a product of 18 years of continued sexual abuse. Today my only hope for being able to practice Krishna consciousness is under the shadow of doubt, criticism and misguidance. I guess what most gay people are really trying to say is: We need a leader, in our time, in our life time, who can have the say and the power to guide us accordingly with full love and understanding. With real understanding of the things we as gay-karmic people are undergoing. Most of the philosophies on practical practice of devotional service seem only to apply heterosexual people. I only want to find acceptance. Where I can go to the temple knowing that I am not judged for my karma. Because for certain do not judge people for being straight. The mere fact that we are beings born in this material existence is a testament that we are all fallen souls. The only difference is that we have different karmas. But we seek to find equal rights so we may peacefully and productively practice KC. If the fear of many fundamentalist ISKCON and Vaisnav groups view on formalizing fundamental equal rights for gay people, and making practices and allowances for the GLBT devotees accepted and comes out to promote sinful activity then the same has to be done to abolish the grhastha concept of our vedic culture. Since it is geared towards eventual giving up of sexual desire, then the same I guess can be done to GLBT devotees who are also seeking a fundamental right or way to gradually give-up or minimize the practice of the sexual act. Because if the fear is mis-use of the this formalized equal rights in marriage or partnership (whatever you may want to call it), it does not take away the fact that glbt devotees who choose to practice illicit sex (the one outside marriage, since there is non constituted yet), because most of us as you would put it, have a greater appetite for sex (which is a undermining the true potential of heterosexual illicit sex in this matter, because there truly is no difference in heterosexual or homosexual illicit sex) we therefore need a system just like in the varna system that can promote the eventual giving up of sexlife. Isn’t that the ultimate purpose of the grhastha asram? And since man cannot live without sex (since he is not yet fully uplifted) and that it is part of his human nature and animalistic tendencies (I know that is debatable, Im using it for purposes of symbolism) we can never really say that sexual activity can be stopped. Even if you were in our shoes, you’d feel the same? So what do you think could be a practical solution? Not everyone is fit to be a bramachari or may be able to live celibate for sure (as in my experience, most of who were bramacharis, trying to suppress their sexual tendencies, ending up in abusing children in the temple, who made it seem like a game and an enjoyable and laughable matter. But for us who are willing to submit to a system can enable us to practice sex and the same time practice KC and eventually diminish our sexual tendencies, a monogamous communion is the closest system I can see fit. It might spur the philosophies, but by not acting upon it, we do not help diminish it either, on the contrary, it has created a big issue that has complicated matters. I do not blame any one. What many of the members of GLBT movement has been trying to fight for is the hate and guilt part of it. Because whether you be hetero or homo, you are subjected the same material nature, there is no such thing as male or female only, the vedas confirms out existence, and out resent existence itself is reality and not a disease that can be cured by any medicine, because we all suffer from the pangs of maya and get disillusioned by her who is the real nature of the material manifestation of the Lord. If we can concentrate more on finding the solution and enough with the who is sinful or more sinful, we can never progress, because whether we like it or not, sex is both a gift and sin for being in this material world. you cannot contest that. It can be a gift if we use for the Lord’s service definitely. But not all hetero couples can make children, does that make their sex life sinful in effect because they cannot have children due to their karma? Again the varna asram system is there to help us channel our material natures so we can find more time eventually in focusing in the Lord’s service.

    This is why we sometimes feel that when people talk against the GLBT rights, we have this acquired feeling of fear immediately retaliate or defend our selves. Just like in war, when a war stricken people is faced with every face that may seem to threaten them, they immediately defend themselves, not taking the time to see if it is enemy or foe. At the slightest glimpse of possible danger, they try to hide or defend themselves. This how most of us GLBT devotees have been living, especially to those who are directly in KC communities and are being judged or branded by the people around them. All these people see when they see a gay man or woman is that this person is a demoniac and filthy person. As if he who is looking and judging is pure. As the famous story Jesus Christ had with mary magdalene before her stoning (correct me if I’m wrong), Jesus said to the gathered crowd of men and women in the village: “Those of you who are free of sin, cast the first stone”. If in our vedic tradition we can also apply this then, we prove to be a greater people, advanced in knowledge, compassion and love, with a truly deep understanding and sense of compassion for all living entities. We are all with sin for as long as we do it. What out movement can merely do is find ways based on the vedic system and help all conditioned souls. We only ask for rights to marry or have partners, recognized by our community so we may be able to practice monogamy, for the very same purposes you enter marriage. To be able to recognize the sexual act, but within the framework of doing it with only one partner, thereby minimizing the sexual frolicking tendencies that an animalistic nature may tend to overcome the individual is not controlled.

    In the end bramachari or grahastha does not ensure the diminishing of the sexual tendencies in both hetero or homosexual relationships, but it is a viable system that has the best chances of achieving its purpose of diminishing illicit activities, and I would want to put that co-called illicit sex in the light of having sex with more than one person or not being able to commit to one person for that matter. To me that is illicit sex. Marriage is only a formality and a spiritual blessing in the religious system. If because of our nature you (all non-supportive) believe that the Lord cannot be happy for us because we have this desire, then we are definitely condemned as by your belief would put it. But claiming god’s words into yours and validating it with scripture then, you have limit the Lord.

    What is being pointed out I’d suppose in regards to Srila Prabhupada’s quotes, is that he was never for gay practices, but in parallel to that he was also not in for straight men and women having sex outside marriage. To supposedly why in the previous parts of this thread a citation of a letter to a disciple, Srila Prabhupada had instructed his gay disciple to find a nice boy. Meaning most likely compared to the other letter cited, where Srila Prabhupada was not in favor of the the gay practices of that other disciple, was in justification of that disciples continuous frolicking with other men. But there was consideration when Srila Prabhupada gave instructions. It depended on the disciples condition and situation. But on an overview of all cited letter of various initiating gurus I’ve read in regards to sexual relationships both hetero and homo, it boils down to two things important: 1st, it is important to understand that the multifarious practice of sex is a sin, no matter married or single; 2nd, an instituted system is the best and practical way to be able to practice KC in a conscientious manner. And in every situation, there are variable circumstance and restrictions. If these were followed and adhered to, a devotee can achieve his goals of ultimately curbing the sexual tendencies on the material nature, thereby allowing him more time and effort in the service of the Lord. And in that I think is summarization of all the teaching of the vedas. Being able to eventually and gradually, honestly and truthfully give-up the material nature. For all this lust is due to our material birth. Part of being born with a material body. Be it plant, animal, bird, human, we all have this lustful tendency. It makes no difference to many who do not support our cause, because the reality is, whether it is formalized or not as a recognized practice, people both hetero and homo will continue having sex. But what can this legitimate of equal rights bring? A chance for seriously desiring devotees and individuals to progress in Krishna Consciousness. By allowing us this right, you have showed us so much compassion and understanding. This is how we would feel. But until that day comes in ISKCON and other vaisnav traditions, it will always be a battle to the death. You fear for your family and your sakes, but you do not fear for us who are afflicted by this branding and situation. MOst of u never chose to be gay. It is with our birth karma that we are to suffer in this kind of material body, just as you as straight people are to suffer in a straight body. We all suffer in this material body whether gay or not. But why should straight people only be given the chance to succeed in many aspects of life, both materially and spiritually.
    Why can’t we GLBT people also experience that same right?

    If you fear that the gay community threatens your children’s morality then you must also then never allow your children watch television, movies, all media which also advocates the lust in the world. It has no difference really.

    If you understood more who we are, what we are, that we are just like you and not really so different, then maybe you can come to the plane of higher understanding of the concept of: We are not this body. This is a very basic understanding, but many cannot fully comprehend. We do not ask you to bless our sex, we do not ask you to tolerate multifarious sexual relationships with men, we merely ask for an equal recognized opportunity to improve and better our selves. Wouldn’t it be better if all gay and lesbian people get married? By doing so, we can minimize the spread of aids in our area of the community. Because it seems that there are more legislatures approving casas, strip joints and other sexually oriented straight facilities in the world. What I believe makes the vaisnav culture more advanced is that it has understanding of this material nature , acknowledging it multi facets and has made means and systems for the progressive upliftment of the human race. That should make us different from the rest of the world. Let us not make christian fundamental values of former Christian come to undermine our real purpose of our society.
    This is what we mean by compassion and recognition. To recognize that indeed just like all of you we too are conditioned and have to be given a fair system that can allow us the same opportunity of upliftment.
    I hope we can agree on that. And from there, put away all the other issues to rest. Focus on that and help each other. I can sense that genuine want to help us, but there are some other covering in your statement which seem to be tainted by other motives and other embedded misconceptions and paradigms about the GLBT devotees. Yes we want to have sex, but is there a means to that since it is in our nature, so we may too have a monogamous practice and eventually minimize that material tendency. Prabhu’s this is really what we seek. And from there on I believe all other issue follow to solve. Hate and misconception can be eradicated. With proper guidance and systematic education, our children and future generations can be of higher order thinking, higher understanding, higher compassion and higher desire to serve the Lord by sharing compassion for all. Where we are not branded by race, color or gender, but viewed as vaisnavas. All the technicalities prove nothing. It can only be taken out of context. but if our goal is united and efforts taken into proper consideration without fighting and judging, then we can all live peacefully. We do not promote gayism, we peomote that we are not different in the sense that it matters not to be man, woman, gay, but that we are all spirit souls, all under the influence of maya in different levels of devotions and levels of development, and that all can eventually find peace in harmony and unite in serving the Lord, no matter what level of understanding or relationship with the Lord. What matters is, we all can take part, no matter who we are, as long as there is a desire to serve and develop and refine that devotional life. that should be the aim. Not to prove who is better and who is demoniac.

    PLease forgive me ahead of time should I have offended anyone in my statements.

    Hoping for you compassion and understanding. I am a fervent believer that there are people in the world like you are just misunderstood by our GLBT members, but I’m pretty sure you care. Its just that, sometimes we have to be careful if want to help. Because we might end up offending instead of helping. That is what we ask of you.

  37. TBC

    Everyone should always remeber you are not this body, we are all souls.
    You seem to be missing this basic point. As long as you identify youself with material body, you cant even start to follow KC.
    Gay, straight, poor, rich, men, women… doesn’t matter… everyone has the chance and should do everything for Krsna.
    You have to try your best to give up your sense gratification and stop making sex for the sake of your pleasure. You just have to do it… focus in more usefull stuff.
    You don’t make the “rules”. You either make an effort and follow all the regulative principles or you don’t.
    If you can’t give up sex, you’re attached to matter. Give up this and find pleasure in the relationship with God.

  38. hopefuldevotee

    TBC, Pandu das, Every homophobic, hateful devotee:

    I am not “missing the point.” I don’t care if you or I identify with this material body or not. Homosexuality is NOT ALL ABOUT SEX. One can be celibate…have NO sex desire whatsoever, and still be gay. Homosexuality is not a bodily condition. It is not a disease. I don’t know if you are a man or a woman, gay or straight. But DISCRIMINATION AND HATE IS WRONG. And you’ll say that you don’t hate me. You’ll say that you love me because we are all spirit souls. But when you or anyone else tell me I have a disease because I am gay, that is hate. It is wrong to discriminate against someone based on a BODILY condition. It is wrong to discriminate based on a NON-BODILY condition. Don’t discriminate based on the color of someone’s skin (as Pranhupada did). Don’t discriminate against a woman because she has the bodily dress of a woman. It’s hypocritical for you to tell me that I am equal on a soul level but then preach hate against me and tell me I have a disease, and that I am born on a “lower level” because I happen to be a woman. IT’S WRONG IN ANY CASE. Don’t tell me to become more Krishna conscious. You and so many others like you are the ones who are missing the point. You might be think you are the most God realized persons on earth, according to your definition. But when you discriminate against anyone, you are lower than low. I don’t call that Krishna/God consciousness. You are delusional. I am angry, and you can tell me all about how delusional and wrong and un-realized I am. I DON’T CARE.

  39. Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

    Dear Giridhari Prabhu

    My reply to your last entry is no longer on your site here. It appeared to be there when I checked it. Did you take it off? If so, it speaks volumes.

    Your servant,
    Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

  40. Obviously there are quotes to support various standards of sexual relations within marriage. I knew that, but still I’m impressed that Giridhari was able to produce so many of them. Of course the basic principle is that lust and Krishna consciousness are incompatible.

    Personally, shortly before my initiation ceremony, my guru endorsed the lower standard and I believe that was very detrimental to my spiritual life. Maya immediately attacked and caused me to fall from a higher standard that I have never been able to recover. My guru cheated me, and the gays are apparently looking to be cheated much more.

    In any case, the issue in question does not pertain to sexual relations between husband and wife, but whether homosexual marriage should be allowed in a Vaisnava society. Has any Vasinava acarya endorsed such an idea?

  41. Narada priya devi dasi

    Giridhari prabhu and assembled Vaisnavas, PAMHO AGTSP

    Prabhu you wrote: “The scriptures (Manu Samhita and Srimad Bhagavatam, for example), also do not promote the standard that sex is strictly and only for procreation.”

    Manu samhita also says that divorce is allowed in certain cases. So why did Srila Prabhupada stress no divorce to his disciples? Because there is a sense of urgency. Prabhupada teaches us don’t waste time in this material world.

    We (Iskcon) are followers of Prabhupada. Prabhupada did not approve of homosex. Therefore it should not be given undue recognition in his society. If people cannot accept what Prabhupada wanted they should start their own society, because he would never have tolerated Hrdayananda’s deviation of sanctioning a homesexual union. Prabhupada is not interested in popularity but purity.

    Otherwise, it doesn’t hurt a gay person to remain humble instead of demanding rights and recognition. Same with the women who are clamoring for these things. We should welcome unhappiness and trouble in our lives, if our hearts are directed toward Krishna. Prabhupada says a devotee does not take troubles illy (SB 1.18.48) but thinks, “I am being purified.” In other words, it is Krishna’s mercy upon us.

    I pray I haven’t offended anyone. Maybe I have something more to learn here. I was just passing through after hearing about the sanctioning by HM.

  42. amal

    just found this site, I am not a devotee, but do enjoy Prahupada’s boks. In the Torah ‘old testament’ in the book of Leviticus, homosexuality is described as a ‘abonimation’ agaisnt God, the word ‘abomnation’ does not come up very often only in a few instances. Look carefully at this…it is the ‘act’ that is the abomination…the person who choses to ‘act’ in this way may have a good heart most of the time, but these ‘acts’ are the abomination…so the answer is very simple….surrender these desires to God & ask for His help & guidance to not act in this way. Why are we making this so complicated? It is an unatural ‘act’…not intended by our Creator.
    SHalom! ag

    • Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

      Hare Krishna Amal. Too your comment I say “amen”. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I wish only the best for you on your spiritual journey and may you achieve pure love of Godhead very soon.

      Your servant,
      Jivananda dasa Vanacari ACBSP

  43. readmore

    Im sorry but there is NO ASRAMA for homosexuals. We are talking spiritual life here. Not accomodating and making excuses for illicit sex and being politically correct. Its,as simple as it is with christianity and many other traditions,its not accepted. Nothing says you cant be a gay devotee but you MUST be celibate because AGAIN ,there is no asrama for you. If you cannot accept that you are free to go elsewhere and be as illicit as you want. Im not watering down,degrading,or making excuses for your illicit sin just as i wouldnt if you were eating meat. Im certainly not condoning something that is blatantly against sastra just because certain materialistic ‘devotees’ absorbed idiotic political correctness because they watch tv. Another vaishnava NO NO. Some of us take spiritual life seriously and im not breaking principles or watering things down because you are insincere and might be offended. Spiritual life IS NOT a karmi popularity contest but many of you have made it one.This is SPIRITUAL life. Its to be taken seriously. No where does it say i have to play house with homosexuals. If that offends you. Too bad! How dare anyone push their sin and pride on me and expect me to allow and condone their sinful lifestyle that is completely against our principles. You come up to standard. Dont ask me to lower mine.You have a whole world to be homosexual in. Have at it. But im not compromising because you arent serious and you dont read but rather subscribe to.politically correct gov propaganda. I listen to sastra regarding these issues. Not a tv. Hare Krishna.

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